8. Solving the Right Problems in the Right Order

Gwen Episode 8: 00:00:00

When we started the business, we wanted to make sure that we were, we delivered within five minutes. But the question becomes, does anyone actually need it delivered in five minutes, or if it's delivered in 24 hours, is that more than enough time

EPISODE 7 TONYA: 00:00:14

Are you feeling overwhelmed, stuck, or uncertain about how to grow your business without sacrificing what really matters most? Welcome to The Business You Really Want, the show for women ready to build a sustainable, fully aligned business. Aligned with what, you ask? You. Your values. Your life. Seriously. It is possible. I'm Tonya Kubo, and along with business advisor extraordinaire Gwynn Bortner, we're here to show you how.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:00:53

Tanya Kubo here with operations expert extraordinaire, or at least my favorite operations expert, and Everyday Effectiveness CEO, Gwen Bortner. And today, Gwen, I have a tricky little topic to discuss with you. I want to talk about solving the right problems in the right order, because I feel like often times, we What I hear, at least on the marketing front, right, is, you know, what are we solving for? Are we solving for the right problem? Let's dig deeper and make sure that we're solving the right problem because solving the wrong problem just takes you down a path that nobody wants to go on. And something that you have taught me is it's not just about solving the right problem, but it's also solving the problems in the correct order. So maybe just open us up by explaining why that's so important.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:01:44

The biggest reason that the order that we solve the problems, um, is it, you know, is important is because it helps, I'm going to say minimize, I'm not going to say eliminate, but it helps minimize rework. So, so that we aren't actually solving a thing, then coming over here and saying, oh, that fix over here wasn't really quite the fix that we needed. We needed to do something else. Whereas if we would have done this other thing first, we would have just done the one fix over here instead of fixing this other thing maybe two or three or four times, you know, and, you know, a great example that we see a lot in the entrepreneurial world is, um, buying a piece of software and saying, Right? The, the symptom is, um, you know, something's not working, so I'm going to buy a piece, I'm going to buy a new piece of software that that's gonna, that's gonna fix it. It's like, uh, is that really the problem? And then, you know, we work through things, we get down to some other cause, and it's like, oh no, this is the problem. It's like, oh yeah, now that software isn't the right software, and we're gonna have to make another fix. And it doesn't happen a lot, but sometimes it's like, and we're gonna go back to where we started. And so now all of the process of changing over to a new software and then changing back to the original, that's a lot of wasted time and effort and rework. And, you know, I'm not saying this happens 85 or 90 percent of the time of this specific example, but it's not uncommon to see, Oh, we made decisions and did things, and now we have to make. So we can make new decisions and do some of the same things again, and so now we're, now we're duplicating time and effort and, you know, time, quite honestly, is our most precious resource.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:03:34

Right. Well, and I'm, you know, what that reminds me of, that's a, actually a really good example because it reminds me of the recent re brand that we worked on together, right? So we, I, I feel the need to tell everybody about my very optimistic view here, okay? I had an optimistic vision. We had a logo, we had colors, we had fonts, we had a whole brand thing, and it just wasn't quite right. You know, the solution to it not being quite right is to hire a designer who specializes in taking a brand that you love that's not quite right and making it right. Except it took, I don't even think it took a full session with her for you to recognize Gwen that it wasn't that the brand wasn't quite right. You didn't love it at all. And then we had to stop. And there was this part of me that was like, no, no, no. I have the wheels in motion. I've set my dates. I've set my timelines. I want to, you know, let's keep going. And you had to go, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. If we keep going, we are going to end up with something we hate. We hate. Well, right now we just don't quite love it. So let's stop here. Let's figure out what it is that we'll love and then let's pick the project back up. And it did take time and it did, you know, it pushed it probably the timeline back maybe a month But I think we would both agree that we let two months fine two months, you know my memory it just gets Things are so much beautifuller and easier when I think about them, uh, than they are in reality sometimes. But we landed in a better place, right? Because we solved, it wasn't just solving the right problem, right? Because we knew we had a brand problem. Having to solve it in the right order.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:05:26

yeah, because the thing, you know, this really is a great example that we've been, we've been living with, right, in a very real and active, you know, sort of way. It is. I've gone through this process several times and part of the reason in from my perspective is one of the root cause issues has been not having someone owning all of the aspects of the brand marketing. piece that really owned it in the same way I should own it. Like I was able to truly delegate it to you and that you're making decisions. very, very, very closely to the same way I would make decisions, because you've been with me long enough, you've taken long enough, that, that you really understand my point of view, instead of it just being someone who said, well, this is, this really is a good answer. This is a right answer. Not. Not saying it's a right answer for me. And so the root cause wasn't that I didn't hire good people and that it wasn't any of those individual things. The root cause was not having the central hub that was paying attention to all of the pieces going on. And, and to me, that's where, where, why the difference is so important is If I would have just hired our brand extension person, um, in the way that I have done in the past, we, we would have had the, the typical issue at some point to be like, yeah, it's fine. That'd make me really happy. I don't think it's quite, quite right. Um, and it doesn't necessarily resonate, doesn't necessarily say all the things that, that it's supposed to say. So it's not like that I've used. Bad people, but I miss, I've missed the root cause in this case. And the root cause being not having a, a true unified message view of, of the whole picture of what we're trying to do.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:07:48

All right. So, so then that's a good example. Like what I'd like to do is, so I think that's a really good sort of marketing example. And I think marketing is an area where we oftentimes solve symptoms versus looking for a root cause. Um, but I think one sort of one area which I bet touches the lives of every single person listening is cashflow issues. So With cash flow, um, am I the only person who sees this? Like, I feel like people oftentimes are just looking at the surface income and expenses and oftentimes what drives a cash flow issue is something deeper. Do you want to talk a little bit more about that?

Gwen Episode 8: 00:08:31

I, you know, I love numbers and I love cashflow and it is, I agree with you. I do think it's something that affects. Businesses at some point in time, not always and not forever, but, but a lot of businesses have it and, and, you know, we've talked about it before, you know, in, in the podcast, cause it, cause it is, it is a bit ubiquitous within, you know, the industry that we're having to deal with it at some point in time. And. The, the common thought, um, that I see is if we're having a problem with cash flow, we need to sell more because, cause we think of that cashflow is we need more money and when I say money, the first place anybody's brain goes, including my own, is sell more, right? Um, create more income. We need more money, create more income. That's a, that's a very logical place to go, but that is potentially a symptom necessarily what's causing the cashflow problem. And so this is where going into the, looking at where there's actually the root cause can make a huge difference because sometimes selling more isn't actually going to be the problem. For example, this is an extreme example, but if it costs you 10 to your widget that you're selling costs 10, you're selling it for 9? Selling a hundred more is not going to help your cash flow and not make it up in volume.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:10:08

Okay, so that's an example of.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:10:10

You're going to lose a hundred dollars.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:10:12

Right, so that's an example of, it seems like a cash flow issue, but really it's a pricing issue in that case. Mm,

Gwen Episode 8: 00:10:20

a, it's a price issue or a cost of production issue. Um,

Tonya Episode 8: 00:10:26

okay, yeah,

Gwen Episode 8: 00:10:26

Right, because maybe you're able to change a production behavior or a supplier or something, you know, some other element and actually get it down to a cost where now selling a hundred versus one actually is making you more money. So, so that's one, one example of the cash flow problem. But the other is sometimes your, um, the, the term I like to use is leaking money. I like to think of it as a bucket. Right? That there's money coming in at the top, like water. And, um, if your bucket is solid, then, then you're, you're taking money out with very specific choices. Right? So the money comes out here and it comes out here, but sometimes you've got some little holes in the bottom of your bucket and pinholes are the worst because they don't seem like very much. They're little, little tiny holes and it's just going to drip down. And it doesn't seem, it's like, well, that's not that big of a deal. This is not that big of a deal. But the problem with pinholes is pinholes can become real holes and real holes can become bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And so where are potentially the, the leaks in your overall business model? It could be leaks in effectiveness in people. It could be leaks in apps that you're paying for that you're no longer using. It, you know, it could, there, there's all sorts of places that could, could be leaks. The other cashflow issue is what I call the, the, the Peter Paul issue, which is you're robbing Peter to pay Paul. And so it feels like we are supportive, but really. We're paying for yesterday's product with today's money, and we don't actually have today's money to pay for today's product. And so, so we're always running, you know, we're getting further and further and further behind over time, um, because We keep trying to sell more and more and more and more hoping that that will allow us to catch up but we're, we're always behind eight ball and we're never actually catching up. So all of those are cash flow issues. They are very, very different cash flow issues and pretty much for the most part putting more money in doesn't solve any of them.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:13:00

right. Okay, so I think that's a really good illustration. In terms of showcasing sort of the difference between having a symptom that you're solving and then actually like digging deeper into the root cause and solving that. Could you, and I'm going to put you on the spot here, uh, but could you give us an example or maybe walk, walk me through the process of addressing how addressing a problem in the wrong order would impact a business?

Gwen Episode 8: 00:13:38

Yeah, so let's say that where we think the issue is, is that we have hired the wrong people.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:13:49

Okay.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:13:50

Okay?

Tonya Episode 8: 00:13:51

I've been there. Mm-Hmm.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:13:53

yeah, right? And so, so our cash flow issue is, we think, a people issue. That the people that we've hired are not the right people and they're not actually working effectively.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:14:06

Okay. Mm-Hmm.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:14:08

Um, and so we let those people go. And then we hire new people, and then we have the same problem again, and then we let those people go, and we hire new people, and we have the same problem again.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:14:21

And at what point do I do I let the hiring manager go because I blame them for hiring the wrong people.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:14:27

Well, and often that's us, so.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:14:29

Yeah. I know. I know. Mm-Hmm?

Gwen Episode 8: 00:14:32

Um, and so, so we think it's a people issue.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:14:36

Mm-Hmm.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:14:37

because they're not performing at the level that we expect them to perform. But in this case, where, where often it is, is it's a process issue. It's a communications issue. There's all sorts of other things that could be driving that particular cash flow issue, because it is still a cash flow issue. We're, you know, we're paying for eight hours of work a day, and we feel like we're only getting three or four,

Tonya Episode 8: 00:15:03

Mm-Hmm.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:15:04

right? But it's not actually because of the People that we hired, it's because our systems aren't working in the way that we think they really should be. For instance, they have to hand it off and then it comes back and then they hand it off and it comes back and they hand it off. Every time that it's, you know, being a handoff in this case, we're, we're losing productivity. Where maybe the right answer is, yeah, you actually only need this person half time and you need this person half time, but this person works half time in the morning and this person works half time in the afternoon. They don't both work full time all day going back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. Okay. Um, not, not a perfect example, but that's a process issue, not a people issue. And if you got it fixed, you would have found that your first set of people were also the right people. now we spent a lot onboarding, offboarding, hiring, unhiring, rehiring, you know, piece because it wasn't actually. a people issue. It was a process issue.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:16:10

Okay. So what, what can I do as a business owner? Like, are there questions that I could ask myself? Is there maybe, I don't know, a five point checklist I could go through that would help me to know whether I'm prioritizing my business problems effectively or accurately.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:16:32

So this is going to sound like a really self serving answer, but it's not. It's, it's a real true thing is it's really hard to do this by yourself.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:16:46

Okay.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:16:47

Okay. Um, because, uh, you know, we use the phrase around here a lot, you can't read the label inside the jar.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:16:54

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:16:55

um, and, and that's, that's true. And so a lot of times you can't see That there would be a different way than going back and forth between these people. It just, it just, it, you can't even conceive of it. And so, you're never going to find that problem. Um, this is where having someone who comes in from an outside and says, So, why does this get passed back and forth, you know,

Tonya Episode 8: 00:17:23

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:17:25

Couldn't this person just spend the morning doing this and this person do the afternoon? And then by the end of the day, we would deliver this product, you know, whatever, whatever it happens

Tonya Episode 8: 00:17:34

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:17:35

When we started the business, we wanted to make sure that we were, we delivered within five minutes. But the question becomes, does anyone actually need it delivered in five minutes, or if it's delivered in 24 hours, is that more than enough time? Right? But the owner who. really loved the fact that they were delivering in five minutes, probably is never going to ask themselves that question.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:18:02

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:18:03

And they can't conceive of asking that question. But when someone on the outside says, so why is five minutes better than 24 hours? They often can't actually answer that.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:18:16

Right.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:18:17

or they can, but when you say, but at this price. Does, does that actually make sense? It was like, oh, well, maybe not. You know, I mean, so then there'd be other, other questions. And so I don't feel like there's an absolute piece. I will say the best way to do it is to work with someone either outside the organization or brand new to the organization.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:18:44

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:18:45

Because new people, if they're really encouraged to ask the questions and say, so why, why do we go back and forth? You know, you hire the, you know, these new people that we're

Tonya Episode 8: 00:18:58

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:18:59

And they, they start asking the questions like, Wouldn't it be easier if like, I worked on this for, you know, a morning and then they worked on it for an afternoon, you know, and, and the question comes up, then all of a sudden it's like, oh, well, yeah, maybe that actually is the right answer.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:19:16

Right.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:19:17

The outside perspective is so important. It doesn't have to come from, you know, a paid consultant, but it does need to be someone who's not so ingrained. It also, if you've got a big enough organization, it can come from another department. They're not as familiar with the nuances and the details, but rare. It's really, really hard because, you know, we work together. I can't do it for my own business either. Even though I do this

Tonya Episode 8: 00:19:45

Right. Well, and I think, you know, some things that I, like, I'm trying to think of how to put this. I do think, if you're listening to this and you're going, okay. Because part of it is you have to even know, like, if I was to work on this with a peer, right, what questions should my peer ask me in order to help me come to the right conclusion? And so I think the first thing, what I'm hearing you say is, okay, so the first thing we have to do is we have to name the problem. And we have to get clear and we have to get succinct about it. And then I think we need to, the second thing we would need to do then is, We then need to detail the impact of the problem, right? So, so the problem is, is we keep hiring folks and nobody is working out. Okay, so what's the impact of that? Well, there's the training time. All this lost productivity and training time takes a boatload of time to, you know, reevaluate the job description, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, and then also they're not working out. What does that mean? What does that look like? What's the impact of them not working out? Like whatever they're doing that's not working out. And then from there, I think it's a matter of going, okay, and what drives that? Okay. Is that necessary? Like, I think what the question that I don't think business owners ask themselves enough, we ask ourselves a lot of what questions we ask ourselves, a lot of why questions, but I don't know that we never, we ever ask ourselves, but does it have to be that way?

Gwen Episode 8: 00:21:20

you know, we, we were just having a conversation as part of the small business book club

Tonya Episode 8: 00:21:27

Mm hmm,

Gwen Episode 8: 00:21:28

a beautiful constraint. And one of the pieces that came out of that is. Instead of saying what's stopping us, it is the phrase, we could if, or we can if, or a version of we can if. And so, uh, I, I really think the way you're talking about there is, is, is that same mindset shift, uh, of saying, okay, how, you know, these people can be more effective. Yeah. If, we can if, they can if, and and saying, well, they can if, um, you know, we extend the line, the, the, the delivery time. They can if, right? And, and I think that really is the place that you start looking for the, for the root cause to, because in the process of this can if, all of a sudden it's like, oh, by changing this element,

Tonya Episode 8: 00:22:28

mm hmm,

Gwen Episode 8: 00:22:29

is. Often way down the line in this process, we say, Oh, well, that changes all of these other things. And we can start in our mind saying, Oh, well, we can look through them. Yeah. Let that's worth a try.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:22:44

mm hmm, mm

Gwen Episode 8: 00:22:46

Let's do, let's do that. And then we can start seeing that change in evaluation of, of what's, of what's happening. Right.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:22:56

hmm, mm

Gwen Episode 8: 00:22:58

And, and I do, I do think your point is you've got to have someone that's asking you. a question that you wouldn't typically ask,

Tonya Episode 8: 00:23:08

mm hmm,

Gwen Episode 8: 00:23:10

right? And that you also need to be thinking about not always about why it wouldn't work, but how it could work

Tonya Episode 8: 00:23:20

mm hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm,

Gwen Episode 8: 00:23:22

because that gets us into a more, more creative place. And, and, you know, I've, I've talked about it often that part of my, my success is. I have seen so many things that work, I can come up with a list of alternatives really fast, that often the person I'm working with has never even seen or heard of. And so it, it just doesn't occur to them. But you could get there with this kind of can if Process.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:24:04

And we're better off getting perspective from somebody who actually has no idea what we do because then they won't carry the same default assumptions we carry.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:24:16

Yeah. You, you and I have both seen that in our, our group quarterly program that we, we've had where there have been folks that are in similar industries

Tonya Episode 8: 00:24:27

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:24:27

that are in com don't know a thing about that industry. And often in the the small group conversations, people come back and it's like, well, I didn't think I could be of any value, but they loved my question because they came at it from a complete novice. perspective. They asked a question that no one in their industry would have ever asked.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:24:51

All right. Yeah. No, that is, that is something we do hear a lot. Okay. So what I would like for you to do, Gwen, now, because, um, I mean, I feel like we've really covered this topic really well. And so I feel like this is a good place to end. But If somebody were to pick up just right now, what would be the two to three things that you think would be best for them to jot down to not forget?

Gwen Episode 8: 00:25:18

So, thing number one is, rarely the way the problem is presenting, The symptom is rarely the actual cause. There's almost always something deeper. Sometimes it's in what I would call a direct line. Um, you know, that this thing it's because of this, this, this, Oh, here's the root cause it's fairly, fairly straightforward, but more often than not, because operations is such an integrated. the actual root cause is somewhere way off in what we would call another department or another, you know, So don't get too stuck on staying in, you know, I'll call the vertical path of the problem, right? So if you're seeing the symptom, realize it's pro so one is it's probably not the root cause. It can be, usually not.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:26:18

Mm-Hmm.

Gwen Episode 8: 00:26:18

And look, the second thing would be don't just look in that obvious line of process, but, but look, Outside and say, are there other, other places? And then the third thing I would, I would say is try to get perspective from someone that you trust, but who isn't necessarily deeply. Embedded in your business. It can be a new employee. It can be an outside consultant. It can be a peer. Um, you know and from a networking group that has a different a different perspective. There's lots of places that you can get it Um, but but be prepared to ask and answer hard questions and be asking The, the positive, what if this wasn't true? What, what can we do if? What can we do if? What can we do if? I really think those are the, those are the three biggies.

Tonya Episode 8: 00:27:16

Okay. Okay. Those sound great. Um, thank you for walking us through that. Now, what I would ask is, anybody listening to the show, I would love for you to email me specifically tonya@everydayeffectiveness.com. That's T-O-N-Y-A at everyday effectiveness com. And I would love to know who do you get this kind of perspective from? If there's an example that you have from your own business where you discovered after the fact you were solving either the wrong problem entirely or you were solving the right problem but you were solving it in the wrong order, we'd love to hear those examples from you and use those maybe in a future show or to even build out resources for future listeners. And uh, thank you Gwen, thank you for being here, thank you for walking us through this process. It's a little, it's a little high level for me but I think, I feel like you helped me understand.