9. True Accountability – The Secret to Sustainable Success

Gwen Episode 9: 00:00:00

Accountability is saying. Did you get the result that you were wanting to get? If you didn't, why not? And is that a problem or is that not a problem?

EPISODE 7 TONYA: 00:00:14

Are you feeling overwhelmed, stuck, or uncertain about how to grow your business without sacrificing what really matters most? Welcome to The Business You Really Want, the show for women ready to build a sustainable, fully aligned business. Aligned with what, you ask? You. Your values. Your life. Seriously. It is possible. I'm Tonya Kubo, and along with business advisor extraordinaire Gwynn Bortner, we're here to show you how.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:00:53

Tanya here with none other than my co hostess but the mostest, Gwen Bortner. Gwen, if you're just catching the show for the very first time, is an expert in business operations. She is the CEO of Everyday Effectiveness. And she is probably Hands down the best person I have ever met when it comes to accountability. And so today what I want Gwen to do is I want Gwen to educate all of us, including me on What true accountability is and how it fuels sustainable success because I'm not gonna lie I'm one of those people who did not go into business for myself to be told what to do by other people So I'm resistant to this But I know you well enough Gwyn to trust you that when you tell me it's good for me I will take the bad medicine. So tell me what is true accountability and why should I care? All

Gwen Episode 9: 00:01:49

So, the first thing that people get wrong is they think being reliable and accountability are the same thing, which they are not. Um, so, you can be completely reliable and not accountable, and you can be completely unreliable and accountable.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:02:11

explain that to me because I just heard You Okay.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:02:17

here's the thing, accountability takes two people. Reliability is about an individual. Okay.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:02:26

Okay.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:02:27

and so, but people will conflate the two, thinking that if I'm doing the stuff that I'm supposed to be doing, then I am accountable. Well, or they'll say I'm accountable to myself. Well, no, that actually is not. If you look up an actual definition of accountability in like a Webster's Dictionary, it will say, Reporting. to and you can't report to yourself. I mean, you can think about it, but it's, not the same as reporting to And so it takes two minimums to can, you can use more, but

Tonya Episode 9: 00:02:57

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:02:58

two to have true accountability. Now, part of the true accountability where it really makes the difference is it's not just reporting, but that the person that you're reporting to or people, but the person that you're reporting to. actually is, cares about your result and that they're also owning part of this relationship. It's not just like, well, um, you know, send, send me the information and, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll keep track of it for you. Well, that's not actually true accountability. Saying, Hey, I noticed that you haven't sent it. And or saying, I saw this happen. Let me give you some feedback. Where, where I'm really paying attention to the details of what. the back and forth is of whatever we're being accountable about. That's where true accountability happens. So it's not just, you know, checking it off like a task list. That, that, that is not true accountability. That's tracking. And that's Data, and that's information, and you know how I feel about data and information. I love that stuff,

Tonya Episode 9: 00:04:08

Right.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:04:09

but that is not real accountability. Real accountability takes both people caring about the result of the person who's being held accountable, and it does take at least two people, and it does take a back and forth interaction, not just a one way interaction.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:04:29

Okay. So, and you've taught me three things just now. So you've taught me, um, tracking, which is like done or not done, right? It's my list of things. I did it or I didn't do it. Then there's reliability, which is, I said I was going to do it, so I did. Or I trust that that person's going to do the thing that they said they would do. And then accountability is related, but it's this whole other thing that, isn't just independent. You said that's key, right? It has to involve at least one other person and there has to be some back and forth with it. And the reason I'm making the face I'm making is because mentally and you know, I do this all the time. Like I run everything through a use case in my brain and it always looks like I'm rolling my eyes at people when really I'm just thinking. I, you know, I think of all the accountability groups out there and all the ones I've been in, right? I've been in an accountability group where my job was, you know, at the beginning of every week, I was supposed to write out my task list for the week. Like, these are the things that before my head hits the pillow on Friday, I'm going to do these things. And I've had ones where it was the end of the week where I was supposed to report on everything I did this past week. And In some cases, somebody was looking. Um, in many of those cases, you know, really the bounds of the program was simply, it would be checked off, right? My name got a check mark because I did the thing, but nobody really circled back with me on any of it. And in other cases, they'd circle back, but it was really like, good job, good job doing the thing you said you would do. But, Nothing else, right? And, and definitely not an inquiry in maybe like what came up that I wasn't expecting or any sort of examination. And when you're talking about the two way conversation, it sounds to me like part of accountability is also not just, did you do it? But that exploration about what else came up. Is that accurate?

Gwen Episode 9: 00:06:23

I will say it's accurate for my definition. Um, you know, this is where probably other people would argue with me and say, no, no, no, that's not needed. But

Tonya Episode 9: 00:06:34

Yeah.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:06:35

for for me, true accountability says, not only are we making sure that the thing that we're doing is getting done, but we're also examining, and I like that word that you used, examining is really a great word for it, that we're examining what was done and saying, Was that actually the best thing to do? Um, it, did we learn anything from it? Are, are there, you know, and sometimes sometimes we don't learn anything from it. That's okay, and maybe there's not a lot to examine. That can be true. That, but for me, part of the accountability is, is is doing that examination on an ongoing basis. And, you know, sometimes it is about, woohoo, nice job, you got something done. You know, I mean, it doesn't always, everything doesn't have to have this deep, important meaning, because that's not the way life is. But there are things that do, and not paying attention to that means that you aren't really being held accountable. And, and, and to me, we often can't see the things that have meaning, um, for ourselves, unless either someone has asked us to really think about it, because we're, you know, we're entrepreneurs, we're busy, we're doing things. Um, or, um, We just can't see it for ourselves because sometimes, you know, it, it is hard to do true, true self reflection. I don't care what anyone says. It's, you know, it's, it's why therapists exist. It's hard to do. It's hard to do true self reflection. And so that, that to me, that's part of what the accountability is. Someone saying, huh, this seems interesting. You might want to pay attention to that.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:08:18

Okay. So like, I hear you. And I believe you. And yet, I can also imagine, okay fine, pull from my own recollection, examples of business owners who would resist that because they would feel micromanaged. So help me understand, how is what you're describing not micromanagement? Or how is it, like, maybe you could say, well, it would be micromanagement if we did this, but it's not when we do that. very much. Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:08:51

me, micromanagement has a couple Key elements that I don't necessarily see in accountability. Okay, one of them is It must be done a specific way or it is wrong Okay, that to me is micromanagement. It's not just where you know, we're starting here and this is the result we need It's you've got to do this step this step. That's it That's micromanagement Okay, that, that to me is one of the first and key definitions of micromanagement. The other is that we're checking in also at every step. To me that also is micromanagement. That we're, we're saying, did you do it? Did you do it? Did you do it? Did you do it? Which

Tonya Episode 9: 00:09:38

about now? Did you do it yet?

Gwen Episode 9: 00:09:41

yeah, how about now? Yeah, to me all of that is, is micromanagement. Accountability is saying. Did you get the result that you were wanting to get? If you didn't, why not? And is that a problem or is that not a problem? Um, because micromanagement would pretty much always say that's a problem. Because I'm expecting this result. Uh, where for me accountability is like, you know, I didn't actually do the thing that I was going to do. And, and to be able to say, So is that a problem or is that not a problem? I say, no, it's actually not a problem. I realized that I was doing this because someone told me I should, and it's not actually going to move my business the way I want to move it. Okay, great. That's actually outstanding accountability, but it has nothing to do with, with micromanagement. Does

Tonya Episode 9: 00:10:35

Okay. And

Gwen Episode 9: 00:10:36

that make enough of a distinction for you or do

Tonya Episode 9: 00:10:38

It does. No, no, no. That is, but it, just a quick follow up question is, do you think the motivations behind each are different or do you think the micromanager actually Like thinks they're holding the person accountable.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:10:53

Oh, I think often a micromanager feels like that's how you hold someone accountable. Uh, and, and, and there's a whole giant conversation that we can talk about why that may be and all the rest of it. We don't need to do that today. But, um, but I do think people feel like that's accountability where part of my definition is we're looking at what was the result. And what do we, what did we learn about that particular result? And is that, whether it was the result we expected or not, and you know, based on that, what do we need to, what do we need to know going forward with it? That to me is very different accountability. I can,

Tonya Episode 9: 00:11:43

Got it. Okay. So, okay. So now I understand how micromanagement and accountability are different. I also understand the difference between tracking Reliability and Accountability. I want to ask, this is going to sound very trite, right? I want to ask, so what's the big deal? Like, why does this even matter? Um, but rather than ask that, I'm going to actually be much more specific with you and ask, can you give me an example of where your definition of true accountability, where putting that in action actually made a difference in a business?

Gwen Episode 9: 00:12:23

I can give a great, great example without revealing actually very many details, quite

Tonya Episode 9: 00:12:29

Mm hmm,

Gwen Episode 9: 00:12:30

Um, I mean, we work together so you know that I have been using an accountability process with my clients called the Weekly Course of Action,

Tonya Episode 9: 00:12:38

mm hmm, mm hmm,

Gwen Episode 9: 00:12:39

for years now. For years and years and years. And, um, One of the things that was interesting is the first thing I noticed, because at first it was completely voluntary and I wasn't really, you know, strongly encouraging it and whatnot. I just thought it was a good idea. But what I, the first thing I noticed was the clients that went through the process regularly, which isn't this giant, giant, giant process, but they were actually every week going through the weekly course of action process, um, were actually making progress faster. than similar clients who weren't. And, and what I realized in that process was this taking a little bit of time every week for the self reflection aspect that we have in the accountability was allowing them to make better decisions faster than continuing to do the same thing that wasn't necessarily really providing the results that they were looking for. So, so that's the, that's the very generic. But I will say, uh, it was, I don't know, a year or two ago, we had someone come in who was only doing the, the accountability aspect, um, uh, with us. They were not getting any one on one coaching or, you know, any of these other things. And, um, they said at the first quarter review period, I got more done in this quarter that actually is moving the needle on my business than I have in the last two years. And, and she said specifically because I knew someone else was going to look at my report and give me feedback. So it wasn't because I didn't know how to do any of these things. She said, because I, I've not needed help in that kind of capacity, but just knowing that someone else actually cared, helped her do the things she needed to do. And she said, and I knew if I did it, she'd get stuck. That there was someone who was actually going to give me some good advice on options or things to consider or a resource or, or, or something else. So it wasn't that I would just be stuck and there I would be. That there were, there was someone who was on my side.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:14:57

Okay, so your sort of real life example then is taking that business owner who, like all things being equal, they weren't actually doing things any differently than they were doing before except for reporting their activity or their goals and then having somebody mirror that back to them. You know, read it, respond, reflect with them. And so what I'm hearing there is there's just, I think there's a piece of us that if we think we can hide or we think nobody will find out, we're just not as motivated to do the things. And I don't even want to say the things that aren't fun, cause there's a lot of aspects of business that aren't fun, that people go about doing all the time, right? But there's certain things that are just easier not to do. If nobody's watching. Or, can you think of specific aspects of business that that's true for?

Gwen Episode 9: 00:16:00

Um, I do think it's for a lot of the operations of the business, because very few people, except for a few weirdos like myself, find the operations actually fun and interesting. They, they find the, the customer interesting. They find the product interesting. They find the service interesting. They may even find the marketing and the sales process interesting. Even often when they say they don't like it, they still find it interesting. Um, because it's, It's, it's creative and it's innovative and it's, and, and, and they get to use all of the skills and a lot of times the operations is a little more, um, mundane, repetitive, um, not as exciting. No one's giving you kudos, um, when. You've cleaned up your books because no one actually knows that you cleaned up your books other than you and possibly your accountant. Um, and so, you know, there's a lot of stuff on the back end that, that doesn't get the same, um, feedback loop.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:17:00

Mm hmm. Right.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:17:02

so I really think a lot of those things are the things that people know need to be done, but they don't do, not because they aren't capable, not because they don't know it's important, not, not for any of the reasons, but they're not getting that. Feedback loop that's actually helping them move forward with their process.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:17:24

And I can see that. I'm, again, just thinking through all the things, going, Yeah, well, I wouldn't want to clean those up if nobody was going to pay attention. Because, you know what? Those things are not fun. And I want gold stars when I do not fun things. So if nobody's going to notice that I didn't do it They're not going to give me my gold stars.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:17:42

Right. But we notice the process, the course of action. We notice and we, we actually, when you're doing, if you're reviewing it, you definitely give them gold stars because you are the emoji queen. But I've started even giving emojis of, you know, the little, you know, party hats and, you know, the champagne bottles and the thumbs up and all because, because we did, we all are kindergartners at heart. We all want gold stars.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:18:06

Yeah, well, and I'm a big fan of the heart eyes and the star eyes in addition to the party hat, because I feel like, like, when was the last time any of us got a sticker? Emojis are my version of stickers these days.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:18:17

Yeah,

Tonya Episode 9: 00:18:18

So, okay, um, so one more question. It may take us a while to go through, but I think it's important. Do you like how I preface that? Just like, it's okay if you have to talk long when I know that before I'm asking the question.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:18:33

it is helpful.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:18:34

When it comes to establishing accountability, I just See that it could be possible for somebody to start out on this path and just do a lot of things wrong. And I think we've already addressed one of the primary mistakes, right? Which is confusing or conflating accountability with micromanagement. Okay, do not decide tomorrow you're going to hold your staff accountable and in holding them accountable you start to ask them what their process is for processing through their email each day. You're not going to win any friends if you do that. Do not. Let them just do their email however they choose. Okay, all that matters is, did they respond in an appropriate time? But, aside from that, right, where one mistake being starting to micromanage versus actually practicing true accountability, what do you think are some other mistakes that business owners would make?

Gwen Episode 9: 00:19:26

The first one that popped into my head, and I'm sure there are others which hopefully will come into my head also as we, as I, because as an extrovert I'm processing as my mouth is moving, so there's a good chance more will come to me. But the first one is actually the other end of the extreme of micromanaging, which is just saying, Did you do it? Okay, good.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:19:49

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:19:50

Which, which for me is fundamentally the opposite and is the checkbox of just

Tonya Episode 9: 00:19:55

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:19:56

okay, great, you know, still no processing of it. Now, not everything in life constantly needs to be processed. Let's, let's

Tonya Episode 9: 00:20:06

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:20:07

know, serious about that as well. Um, we don't need to process everything all the time, but looking at the accountability. in, in just the yes or no is, is not true accountability either. It really is about saying what, you know, what did we learn from this? What do we know about this? What, what are, what are some pieces of information? And like I said, not on everything, every time, all the time, but things that are really, Feeling core at the moment, this, this is the important part is at the moment to the business. Certain things are core of the business today that won't be core to the business, um, in four weeks because they're

Tonya Episode 9: 00:20:54

hmm. Mm

Gwen Episode 9: 00:20:55

running super, super smoothly. And, and so the kind of the checkbox, did we do it is, is all, all that we need. But when things are feeling, Not quite right for whatever reason. Either, should it take more time? Should it take less time? Are our customers happy? Are they not as happy as they should be? Any, any of those things that we think is touching that, to me that's where that reflection piece of the accountability comes in. Not only did we do it, But could we think about it differently? Could we try something different? Do we actually need to be doing all of these things? Or

Tonya Episode 9: 00:21:29

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:21:30

eliminate some things? Should we be doing more things? You know, it, it, it's, it's all, all of those, those pieces and being open to that That thought process all the time. That, to me, is the real piece of the accountability, and I think, like I said, the opposite extreme is making it so performative

Tonya Episode 9: 00:21:52

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:21:53

we don't ever get there.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:21:55

Right.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:21:56

It really just becomes the task list.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:22:00

Yeah, well, that sounds to me like part of, This practice of, of accountability and establishing accountability is okay. You have to recognize that. Did you do it or did you not do it? Right. That that's not, that's a starting point, but that's not the only part of it. But also just doing it isn't always automatically the win. Sometimes it is right. Sometimes, you know, you're supposed to make, you're supposed to make 10 calls on outstanding invoices and you don't want to do it because These are uncomfortable conversations. On one hand, just making the calls is a win, but how you have those conversations and I would imagine the relationship you have with the other person on the other end of the conversation is also an important piece to document in this accountability process.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:22:57

Well, and so let's just use that as a, as a great, great example. Luckily, this is not a problem that we actually deal with very often within, within my own business. But, but let's, but let's, let's pretend because I think it's a great example. So, um, you know, someone needs to make 10 calls about past due invoices. Great. So did we do it? Yes. But did we hear anything consistent? Right? So, for instance, they're not actually receiving the invoice at a place where they're paying attention. They don't realize that they haven't paid the invoice. Okay? Well, that's actually a really good accountability piece of not just making the call, but saying, hey, what I'm hearing is out of ten, you know, eight of the ten people don't even remember receiving the invoice. That means we've got a different, you know, Issue there. We've got a root cause problem that we need to, to address. Um, because my guess is at least half of them probably would've paid the invoice if they would've gotten it

Tonya Episode 9: 00:23:59

Right.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:24:00

Right? And, and so paying attention not only to just doing the thing, but saying, is there any. And this to me is what the accountability process is. Is there anything I learned from that? Um, and, and the answer may have been no, right? If, if we're processing a thousand invoices, you know, a month and 10 of them didn't get paid, they're just the random 10 that didn't get paid this time, you know, for whatever reason. Okay. So just making the calls was the thing that we needed to do. Um, but it also could be something that in three weeks, you notice that All of them were paid, except for one, within a week of that call. And it's like, oh, making these calls actually is important, right?

Tonya Episode 9: 00:24:47

Right.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:24:48

And so, so it's, it's about bringing things forward into our consciousness

Tonya Episode 9: 00:24:55

Okay.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:24:57

that we may not know that we need until further down the road.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:25:02

Yeah. Well, and I think that's important too, right, is that what's important now, or what seems important now, may not seem important later. but that true accountability function helps you figure that out.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:25:20

does.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:25:21

so this is really good. Um, anything else that you think a listener should know about true accountability? Cause I do feel like you talk about it differently than other people. So

Gwen Episode 9: 00:25:31

Um. First, I will say, I never realized it until you and I started working together.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:25:40

I was like, wait, you're a unicorn. I never hear this.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:25:46

helpful because it was like, what is different? And I will say, the first is, I or someone on my team is going to read every weekly course of action document every week. Um, And they know that. And, you know, if I'm out on vacation for three weeks, then usually, Tanya, it's you. But, but also, Andrea, who is technically the person doing the, I'm just checking the box piece to make sure that you did it, um, I'm thinking a couple weeks ago, she, as she was checking, checking the box, noticed a comment and said, hey, let me reach out to you, I've got some resources on this. So not her job.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:26:31

Right.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:26:32

At all, um, I mean, truly, that is not her job, but because we use this accountability within our, within our own team, she's used to looking at it, she's used to thinking about it, she's used to responding, and when she saw that she could, she could help, she just immediately did that.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:26:52

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:26:53

Which is back to, it creates this ongoing behavior for everyone.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:27:01

Right. Well, and it also, I mean, Like, it just opens the door for people to help each other out, right? Because you're not so siloed.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:27:10

And, and you're not seeing it as a criticism. It's

Tonya Episode 9: 00:27:14

Mm hmm.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:27:15

oh, well you didn't do this. Shame on you. It's, so that didn't happen. Is there a reason? Do we need to fix it? Is something broken? Do we need to be doing it at all? It changes the conversation. One of my very, very early on customers who was doing the Weekly Course of Action exclusively, um, described it as non judgmental accountability. And so I think, I think that's actually, you know, you said what else is important? Okay, that's the thing that's important, is that we don't, we don't approach it as, Well, what you did was wrong, right? Or you have failed, or

Tonya Episode 9: 00:28:02

You get

Gwen Episode 9: 00:28:03

you get an F as opposed to getting your gold star. We only give gold stars, we don't give Fs, right? Um, and so instead of approaching it with that, um, right or wrong, yes or no, good or bad, you know, those kind of things, which I think often people assume accountability is, If I didn't do the thing, then I'm bad, I'm wrong, I failed. It's, to me, accountability, and this maybe is part of the thing that makes what I do different than for some accountability, is to say, So why? Why did I not do the thing? What's preventing you? Was it actually important? What, you know, we're asking other questions, not saying, Well, obviously you failed.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:28:56

Right.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:28:58

Right? Because, you know, we, we've had folks on their accountability process have something that they were going to do this week, and next week, and the week after that, and the week after that. And, you know, for a few weeks, you know, life happens. I don't get too excited if someone doesn't get something done in a few weeks. But at some point it's like, so I notice this is continuing to get pushed to the next week. Do you know why that is? Is it because you're actually stuck and you need some help? Is it because you don't actually So, if you don't know how to do it, is it because you realize that maybe it's not actually that important? Do you need to even keep it on here at all?

Tonya Episode 9: 00:29:36

Mm

Gwen Episode 9: 00:29:36

You know, we're asking, we're asking questions without saying, well, obviously you suck because you pushed this particular item

Tonya Episode 9: 00:29:47

Right. You promised you would do it this month and you have not.

Gwen Episode 9: 00:29:52

Yeah.

Tonya Episode 9: 00:29:54

Okay, let me recap really quick. Um, but thank you for this one because this is, I, I say this, I know at least every third episode but I feel like this one could be the most valuable one to date because You know, if you've been listening all the way through, you now know the difference between tracking, between accountability, and also between Good golly, what was the third thing? See, I've already forgotten when there's tracking. There's accountability. Reliability. We also understand now the difference between accountability and micromanagement and where we landed that I think is so important because we went through a few different mistakes that a lot of people make, but the big one is the judgment piece. I think Gwen is not only do you need somebody else to work with you on your accountability because it has to be a two way street, but that person has to to either be non judgmental or they need to be able to communicate their questions in a way where you don't feel judgment. Uh, and I think that is an important one to land on. And so what I would love is for you to email me, right? Cause we are all about the conversations around here, both me and Gwen. Email Tanya. That's T O N Y A at EverydayEffectiveness. com, and I would love to know your experiences with accountability. Have you had this true sort of two way reciprocal relationship that we've been talking about in this episode? Has it looked different? And kind of, what do you think about that? Right? No judgment, no blame, no shame, but just very interested to have that conversation. And thank you again, Gwen, and we will see you next time.