Every CEO knows the sting of doing everything right – following the plan, staying consistent, putting in the work – only to watch the results fall painfully flat. When that happens, most leaders spiral into self-blame, questioning their strategy, their work ethic, and sometimes even their calling. In this episode, Gwen and Tonya unpack what’s really happening in that uncomfortable gap between effort and results. Together, they break down the three places you must examine when diagnosing a disappointing outcome:
- Your plan – Was it strategic or just a bundle of tactics? Were your assumptions sound?
- The environment – What shifted around you that you couldn’t have predicted or controlled?
- Your execution – Did the work actually get done the way you believe it did?
Everything referenced inside this episode:
Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke
Strategic Email Series – Sign up for Gwen’s weekly “one really good question” email
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Watch the episode here
Listen to the podcast here
When You Do Everything “Right”… and It Still Flops
Sometimes you can follow the plan exactly to a T, stay consistent, do all the right things and get absolutely no traction. When this happens, most CEOs, even me on occasion, start spiraling, wondering what they missed, whether the whole strategy was flawed from the start. In this episode, we’re going to talk about what’s actually happening in that gap between effort and results and how to diagnose the problem without burning everything to the ground.
Get Someone To Get You Out Of Your Own Head
Gwen’s here, as always. Would it even be a show without Gwen? She’s going to help us break this apart in that practical, grounded way that she is known for. I’m going to share all the ridiculous experiences I’ve had over the year that make you laugh. Let’s get into it. Gwen, here is what I have found over the years and tell me if you’ve had similar experiences, different experiences, but we, as CEOs, love a good plan.
I think most of us. There are the impulsive folks, but all of us love a great plan and unfortunately, not every great plan has great results. I feel like the first thing that happens is we start questioning ourselves and our work ethic. It’s like, “But I work so hard. But I didn’t sleep for three weeks. But I can’t work any harder than I already did. What more do you want of me?” Can you walk us through, in your experience, why even when you actually do everything right, sometimes things just flop?
I don’t know any entrepreneur that hasn’t experienced this. I experienced it also multiple times in a year, sometimes multiple times in a month, occasionally, multiple times in a week, where you’re just like, “What? Why? This doesn’t make any sense.” I will say one of the best things for that is having someone else to help you talk through it. That’s not really going to your specific question, but it is the thing that I find makes the biggest difference.
When we’ve got someone else that we can actually talk through with it that has enough understanding and care and interest that is bringing a much more objective point of view to it. Once we get in that spiral, I don’t care if it’s you, if it’s me, I don’t care who it is, it is so hard to get out of our own head. You do this for me, I do this for others.
I’m going to add something to that because I think you’re right. The number one thing you’ve got to do for yourself is you’ve got to have somebody who can speak truth to that inner critic that is having a field day inside your brain. The second thing I’m going to add to that, whoever that is, they have to have their own finger on the pulse of the industry and the market, or at the very least, the business world in general.
So many times, we think, and this is what I hear in my clients, like, “My son who has an MBA, my husband, my girlfriend, my pastor, they’re my outside perspective.” The thing is, is those are all wonderful people and I’m sure they’ve got great perspectives, but if they don’t have entrepreneurial experience, if they’re not out in the world talking to entrepreneurs, their perspective, I would say, is valid but it’s not necessarily useful in these circumstances.
You do have to be careful who you’re getting it from and realizing their context is also coloring their questions and their approach to it. Back to having someone help you get out of your head is so important. I think that’s absolutely the first thing because that voice inside our head, it has a lot of practice. It knows how to push every little button for ourselves.
The voice inside our head has a lot of practice. It knows how to push every little button for ourselves. Share on XMistaking Effort For Effectiveness
I’m wondering, again, unpacking this idea of even when you do everything right, you’re still going to have failure. I think one thing you know that we’ve talked about in the past has been that mistaking effort for being effectiveness, thinking how much effort you put into something is going to always net a return in the positive.
I’m going to make an ageist statement, but I’m making an ageist statement about myself. If you’re old enough, that whole work ethic thing was drilled into you knowing that, it was totally drilled into me, that if you don’t work hard, you haven’t earned anything. I think that that’s part depending on where you are, like I said, in your age, and it’s still prevalent. Even though I think it’s less prevalent, but there’s still a fair bit of that.
I think that we do mentally get caught in, “But I worked hard, I worked really hard and I’ve been told if I work hard the results will come.” For some things, that’s true. There are certain things like you can’t magically have six-pack abs without ever doing anything. There’s work that you have to do to make that happen if that’s the thing that you desire. However, not all work will lead to the same result. I think this is the thing. When we think we’ve really done the right work, we’ve put in the effort and it doesn’t net the thing. I know you’ve experienced, I’ve experienced it, every one of my clients has experienced it.
Usually, it’s because either it wasn’t as well aligned as we thought it was. It can be a timing issue. This is one that you and I talk about a lot with me is. Often, the thing that I’m trying to do is ahead of its time. It’s actually a timing issue. If I can just be patient and wait, sometimes a few months and sometimes a few years, everything will click.
Sometimes it’s a timing issue, but sometimes it’s also things that we either didn’t take into account that we should have or that we couldn’t take into account because we didn’t actually know they existed. This will be one of those places that I refer once again to one of my favorite books, which is Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke.
I don’t know if I was seeing it on LinkedIn or somewhere else, but I heard the whole thing life is like a chess board and it’s like, no, life is not like a chess board. Annie Duke is right. Life is much more like poker. We can know a certain amount of things, but there’s a few things we can’t know. If we don’t know them and they show up, we can do all of the right things but still get a bad result.
That’s hard to swallow because I think we want to believe that we have more control and influence.
We want it to be a chess board. We want to be able to say, “If I go here, I know what all of the moves are that will happen.” It’s not that way. Life is not that way in certain areas. There are more than others, but there’s always unknown things that happen. The list is long. We’re still coming out of COVID. Even though it’s several years now, we’re still coming out of that. Who would’ve really predicted that? One of the things that we’re dealing with now, all of our clients are saying is everything feels so unpredictable and there’s so many unaccounted for changes. We’ve laughed about the fact that it’s like no, all of this unpredictability was always there. It just was hidden behind a curtain.
Evaluating Your Plan When It Goes Awry
Touching on that, we have a lot of ground to cover. You’ve done a great job of laying out the pathway for us. As a strategist, I think it’s important to address the fact the best strategy you can buy, even a crap strategy, strategy will always meet some level of unexpected resistance because most strategy is based in some way on past experience, past performance.
Strategy will always meet some level of unexpected resistance because it is mostly based on past experience and performance. Share on XWe create these strategic plans and what speaks into the strategic plans usually is like, “Whatever our goal is, what has worked in the past to get as closest to it to achieve it,” to, “What of those things can we do more of? What of those things needs to be done a little bit differently because of the market or recurrent events or whatever.”
We’re always creating a strategy. We don’t create the strategy really out of a vacuum. We typically take past event performance and use that to inform the strategy. We’re hoping it’s like based on what we know of now and what we’ve seen in the past, if we mix a little bit of A and a little bit of C and a little bit of D, we think we’re going to get this future result.
There’s always going to be something that zigs when you think it will zag. In that vein, Gwen, I think there are three places when you are saying, “I did everything right, it flopped or it didn’t do what I wanted, what went wrong?” I think there are three places to look. One is to look at your plan, the second is to look at the environment, which you touched on COVID being a great example. The third is to examine your execution. I think we mistakenly always look at execution first. When you are working with a client and things didn’t go as they expected, what are the questions you ask them to help them evaluate the plan?
It really is starting with those assumptions. What are the things that we are assuming are going to be true? I’m not going to remember the title of the book, but I was listening to a book not too long ago that was really focused very much on strategy. One of the things that that he talked about, which I thought was really interesting is, what you said, most of us develop our strategic plans based on past execution because it’s a logical way to go. His point was that’s often the problem because if what worked before would actually solve the problem we’re having now, we wouldn’t have a problem now
That’s the question of like what assumptions are we making that may or may not actually be true. I think that’s where we have to get to first in the plan. It is to say we are assuming A, B, C. Are all those things actually true or are they things that are realistic? Are they things that we can actually hang something on?
To say that this actually makes sense, and I’m going to totally botch the example, but one of the things that they were using as they were talking about that their sales were down, they need to increase their sales and everyone’s strategy was basically do what we’ve done before, it’ll get us more sales. His point was, “If that was true, sales wouldn’t be down because we’re already doing what we’ve done before.”
The one example that’s popping into my mind, it was like, what if we actually looked at a completely different market than what we’ve historically done? That also then meant we couldn’t assume any of the sales tactics and the activities and whatnot would work because it was a completely different market. I think the first is always checking the assumptions to say, are the things that we think are happening actually happening?
One of my clients were shifting a business model and she panicked and shifted back in a way that was not helpful for the new place that she was going. When we started talking about it, it was like, “Is the new business model not working or is there elements of the business model that are not being worked?” What we realized was there were elements that were not being worked.
Let’s not assume that this new strategy isn’t actually getting the results that we need. Let’s just make sure that we’re doing all of the pieces that need to be done and that they’re actually getting executed in the way that they need to be executed. The thing that we do have to deal with all the time is question the assumptions and then start digging into is that actually the root cause or do we go deeper or do we go deeper.
What became pretty obvious was the person that was supposed to be doing certain activities probably wasn’t actually doing many of those activities because it was their least favorite thing to do, so they weren’t actually doing all of those activities. That’s where it becomes really clear pretty quickly. It’s like, “That’s a different problem. We need to find someone who’s able and willing to do those activities.”
You evaluate the plan, you look at like what the assumptions were that the plan was built on? I’m somebody who’s always going to be looking like, was the plan actually strategic or was it a bundle of tactics? I can’t tell you how many people come to me and their big strategy is they’re going to live stream for like 28 days in a row. It’s like, “Okay, and what’s the purpose of our live stream?” There’s no strategy.
Looking At Your Environment Where You Plan Doesn’t Work
It’s just like, “I’m going to live stream.” It’s like, “Okay, that’s a great tactic, but the strategy’s going to tell us what we actually say on our live stream. What’s that?” They’ve got nothing. The next is the environment. I think it’s always important to look at what’s going on in the world, even if you’re not a big news junkie and say, “What changed that you didn’t plan for or you didn’t account for? What do you do or advise doing when it comes to looking at the environment when something doesn’t go according to plan?
I think it’s good to understand is the environment is actually causing the problem and to look at it in that way to say, “Is that actually where the problem is?” At the same point, what I find often is also the case is people get so focused on what’s going on in the environment that they’re trying to deal with things. It’s like you don’t actually know enough about the thing that you’re trying to adjust for.
This is the end of 2025 that we’re recording this. If you wanted to pick 1 or 2 major topics that were popping up in the news consistently, tariffs would be a big one in 2025, as an example. I work with a number of people that deal with physical product, tariffs is a thing. It’s a real thing. Tariffs is not such a big deal if you’re doing service, but if you’re doing physical product, it’s a thing.
What I found was people were trying to make strategic choices about tariffs when there wasn’t actually any real information yet about tariffs. I remember saying to one of one of my clients, “What you actually need to do is stop watching the news.” She laughed. I went, “No, I’m serious, because you are worrying about something that you have no way to be able to make any information on until it actually lands in your shop.” Tariffs, as an example, is one of the most complicated calculation things on the planet.
Unless you’re a super expert and even them, I think, don’t really know what is going to be the impact on your product. Stop worrying about what the impact is going to be on your product. Know that there will be one and know that you need to deal with it when it hits. Most of my product-based clients, they start worrying about this in January or February 2025. Very few of them have had much impact until the last couple of months of 2025. Back to be aware to say, “This is probably going to be impacting my business,” but also, don’t let it be the thing that allows you to spin in such a way that you’re not actually doing the work that you need to be doing between here and there.
Checking Your Execution Last Instead Of First
When we’re looking at why all the things maybe failed, we look at the plan, we look at what’s going on, like you said, current events. I think tariffs, great current example. If we were recording this years ago, we’d be talking about the effects of COVID and then you look at execution. Why do you think it’s important to look at execution last versus first?
It’s because execution is not useful until we actually know how it’s being affected by these other things.
You have to know if the plan you set was built on faulty ground.
Yeah, exactly. Were you building it on rock or you building it on sand? I remember you had an example and I’ll just start it and then I’ll let you talk about it of where they were going to grow their business by some giant number and you’re like, “That’s not even possible.” It was a strategy built on something that didn’t make sense. You can take it from there because, like I said, I’m totally butchering this example, but I know you know what I’m talking about.
This was a good one, though, because this was a company that had a product. They had a set number of new enrollments they wanted every year. It was like a membership. They wanted 100 new enrollments, so above and beyond the renewals each year. In year three, they brought me on board because they were like, “We need to decide. Either the membership’s not working or something’s going on because we keep failing our projections.”
I’m like, “What’s the goal?” They were like, “It’s 100.” I’m like, “Okay.” I set out everything, had a strategy, had a plan, and I think we landed at like 48 and they were just like, “Do you know what happened? We invested more in this launch than we’ve ever invested before.” This is when I was a bit new, so I hadn’t asked for their data going into my first launch with them. I said, “Let’s look at the numbers from before. Let’s see how we compared to last year, how we compared to the year before.”
I thought, “I need to know, are we half of last year, 10%? Maybe then I can figure things out.” Come to find out, so their goal had been 100 new enrollments every single year. First of all, they had never ever gotten 100 new enrollments. It’s like, “If you didn’t get that the first time launch and right out of the gate, what made you think you were going to get it now?” Second, they had actually never gotten more than 36.
They thought their tops was 77 because they did have a year where they enrolled 77 people. Those extra 40 people didn’t pay to get in. I had to be the bearer of bad news and say, “Those people don’t count.” “They count.” “No, they don’t because they didn’t give you money. We need to base our goals on who has given this amount of money to be in this thing.”
Those were the first two things. One, they had never achieved 100, and two, they had never even had more than 35, maybe 40 people who had paid at any given time. The third factor, which I thought was even bigger, was that they had been increasing the cost year over year. Last year, they didn’t get it at the price they wanted. They were increasing the cost so that they would meet their financial goals even if they didn’t meet the enrollment goals.
I had to be the bearer of bad news and just say, “Your goals are totally off. You’re setting a standard for success. That doesn’t make any sense.” What I should also add is that their audience size had not increased in those three years. It’s not even like they were adding new people to the pipeline. It was flawed from the get go. The strategy may not be flawed, but the goalposts were totally in the wrong spot.
I think that’s an area where if we had just sat there and focused on what we said during the webinars or what the email copy was. We could have twisted ourselves inside out and rewritten copy six ways from Sunday. It doesn’t change the fact that they had no reason to even think that they would get 100 new enrollments, even though that’s what they were setting as their measurement of success. We look at the plan, we look at the environment, we look at the execution. How do you look at all the things we’ve talked about, Gwen, and figure out what actually is wrong?
That’s where the magic comes. I’d love to say that there’s a formula. There is so not a formula. Often, it’s a bit of trial and error. I’d love to say, “All you have to do is,” but it’s just not that way. It really is looking at all of the elements and saying where do things actually feel off. The example you just gave, the execution was not the problem. However, there are times when it’s like, “No, the execution was also part of the problem. The copy wasn’t going out consistently. It was poorly written.” It can be any of the pieces of the equation.
I think the trick is being willing to put everything on the chopping block. Everything is being looked at and being considered and realizing, in some cases, it really has nothing to do with you. It has to do with timing, space, environment and things that you couldn’t control. Before we started, we talked about that there were really bad strategies and execution that was working also soon after COVID hit because people had ridiculous free money that they didn’t know what to do with.
You must be willing to put every strategy on the chopping block. Everything must be looked at and considered. Share on XThere are all sorts of things and of course that’s one of those examples. If you are using really bad tactics and strategy, when people were freely giving money, you may think, “I’ve got this great business and then all of a sudden, it’s like none of the stuff is working.” It’s like, “Technically, none of it should have ever worked.” We’re basing information on faulty data. It really is analyzing it and saying, “What can we do?” That’s where you have to decide, “Am I going to wholesale change or am I going to tweak and adjust or am I doing something in between?”
It’s truly a benefit analysis of what’s the cost of doing the wholesale change versus what’s the cost of doing the tweak. Usually, the tweak is easier, but sometimes it’s not because we need quicker response and the tweak is going to make the adjustment, but it’s going to take longer. There are so many factors that go into it to see what really needs to happen, what actually has to change. The example I was giving earlier where they had made a business model shift, we realized that it was more of a panic mode that she went back to like, “I’m going to make a big shift.” It was like, “No, that was actually just a panic mode.”
That wasn’t actually helpful in making the big shift. What we needed to do was actually look at why it wasn’t working and make the tweak. Now we’re making the tweak and all of a sudden, things are going better. Part of it was time. It’s like, “We’re not seeing it. We’re not seeing the change fast enough.” It’s like, “Yeah, but you knew this was going to take time.”
This was not a, “We’re going to make this change and we’re going to see results in 30 days.” We knew that this was a longer play. One of those things, you’ve got to look at all of those factors and say what actually needs to be done. There are other times that it really is like, “No, you need to make a wholesale change because this just is not working at all.”
I think part of what you’re talking about as going through to make your diagnosis is you do have to separate your symptoms from your cause. You’re a person who’s always going, “Okay, but is that the root cause? Let’s dig a little deeper,” because it might be or it might not be. A lot of times, the thing that emerges as the most painful or most acute just isn’t the actual reason. You go forward into what you were saying and make this plan of like, “How do you get out of here? What’s next?”
Calibrating Your Expectations When You Are Disappointed
Assuming you’re not going to close down your business and take your toys and go home. There’s got to be a what’s next. As you said, you can decide, do you scrap the whole thing and try something new? Do you make some tweaks? I think that is definitely great first advice. I also think there’s something about expectations. How do you recalibrate your expectations when you are disappointed? I think at the very least, even if you’re not crushed in like wanting to quit everything, it’s fair to be disappointed by poor results.
Been there, done that how many times since you and I have worked together? That happens a lot. I think part of it is understanding that’s part of what you signed up for as an entrepreneur. That’s part of it because if you wanted what I’ll call the steady satisfaction, that’s what a job is. I know what I’m going to do. I’m going to go into work and I’m going to do these things and I’m going to get paid.
Not that every job is fabulous, but most people, if they work at it, a tiny bit can actually find a job that’s actually pretty fabulous, if it comes down to it. The disappointment, the taking the risk, the trying something new and having it not work is also part of the other side of the coin of having it work in an amazing way and go, “This is amazing,” because it wouldn’t be amazing if it worked every time.
Part of it is just saying, “This is what it is.” One of my clients, this was an issue because she has things where she’s worked really hard and things completely out of her control. The deal falls through. Completely out of her control. Did everything right. The execution was right, the strategy, the goal, all of it was right. Still falls through. What she found is that before we were working together, that would devastate her for extended periods of time. She’s made fabulous progress. She now gives herself permission to say, “I’m done for the rest of this day, I’m just done,” and call it for a day, but not for a week or a month or an extended period.
It’s just like, “This has taken all of my energy today, but I’m going to come back tomorrow and I’m going to look at it with fresh eyes and I’m going to figure out what needs to be done.” In some cases, like in her case, it’s done. What she needs to do is find the next deal. She knows that she doesn’t have the energy to find that next deal now because it sucked. Now, when she’s having that, she’ll give herself a half a day and not beat herself up about it, but she doesn’t lose an entire week. I think that has to be part of it. It’s okay that we failed.
How A Leader Should Talk With Their Team About Failure
What do you think you need to do if you have a team? How do you talk to the team about a failure? So many times, when we’re running toward a big goal, we have enrolled everybody in the organization on it.
I think it’s important to be as reasonably transparent as you can be. Not everything makes sense for everybody to know. Let’s be honest about that. To say, “I was expecting this outcome. This is not what happened.” If there’s places that there are rooms for improvement or things that need to be done, be clear and say, “It really appears that X, Y, and Z were issues that we didn’t do it well, we need to do it better. You work on fixing that.” However, it’s also important to say, “As far as I can tell, we did everything right and it still went to hell. “ There we are. Just owning it in a very honest and straightforward way and saying, sometimes this is what happens.
I think if you’re running a traditional organization, most people care about job security more than anything. I was reading something on LinkedIn where it said it is never ethical for an employer to promise job security in this market, but I think you can be honest on whether this is not an outcome that was completely beyond the realm of possibility. We had contingency plans or this is really shocking, so we’re going to recalibrate and we’ll let you know how that affects you. I think the biggest mistake that we make is when we want to lie and we want to act like something was more successful than it was because that never, ever goes well.
Quite honestly, the other is also true where we act like it was less successful than it actually was. There’s a sense like, “It just didn’t do anything that we wanted it to do.” It’s like, “No.” Actually, going the example that you had, it’s like, “No, you didn’t hit 1,000 but you hit 48. That was actually better than you’ve ever hit before. Instead of beating people up in the like, “I didn’t do what we needed it to do,” and all of that to say, “We had a really outrageous goal and we came nowhere near it, but we actually did better than we’ve ever done. Let’s figure out how we can leverage that to do better next time again.”
Ultimately, it’s like you just have to right-size the expectations and right-size your evaluation of how things went. I want to bring us back to what you said at the beginning, Gwen. It is impossible to be a business owner, to be an entrepreneur and have everything go right all the time.
It’s absolutely not the nature of it. If it is, then something weird is happening. I’ve never come across any entrepreneur at any level, highly successful or not, that hasn’t had these kinds of issues at some point in time.
Major Takeaways And Valuable Tips From This Discussion
Ultimately, what you need to do if you’re reading and something goes sideways, this is one of those episodes where I say bookmark it and read it every time something fails to meet your expectations as a good reminder. The first thing you want to remind yourself is effort and effectiveness are not the same thing. Just because it didn’t go well does not mean you didn’t work hard. It does not mean that you didn’t do everything you knew how to do.
Nobody, least of all us, is questioning your work ethic or how much you wanted it. That’s the other thing we’ll hear. It’s like, “If you wanted it bad enough, you would’ve been successful.” That’s not always the case. The second thing is take a look. Almost always, the answers will lie in one of three places. Take a look at your plan, take a look at the environment, what’s going on around you in the world. Is any of that potentially a factor into what happened, and then, and only then, look at your execution. Did you follow the plan like you said you would, like you expected to consistently?
Once you look at all those things separate the symptoms from the causes, that’s often a place where you do need outside perspective, especially if it’s a plan of your own making. It’s very easy. Mix everything all up into one single thing. Be honest. As you plan to move forward, the big decision is do I scrap everything and throw this whole do I throw the baby out with the bath water, start over? Do I make some tweaks? What makes sense?
Your circumstances and my circumstances, even if we launch the same general thing at the same time will be very different. I might need to scrap my plan while you might need to just make a couple of tweaks. Finally, on the note of outside perspective, I think part of it is getting good at reflection, Gwen, because that’s what I think. Sometimes, we don’t actually take the time to reflect until something doesn’t go according to plan.
We do not actually take the time to reflect until something does not go according to plan. Share on XWe tend to only be reflective when we’re looking at what went wrong. We tend to not really reflect much when we want to think of what went right. We’re like, “Right in the high and moving forward.” If you’re reading and this has given you something to think about and you’re like, “Maybe I do need to spend a little bit more time with reflection,” or, “I would love to spend more time on reflection, I just don’t know what to reflect on. Tell me what to reflect on and I’ll do it,” we’ve got something for you.
It is this great email that Gwen sends out once a week with just one question. It’s one reflection question, probably takes you 3 to 5 minutes to think of, unless you’re a really deep thinker. There’s not advice in there. There’s not a whole bunch of if-this-then-that overwhelm. Just a prompt that helps you get into that CEO’s strategic brain for a little bit of time each week and exercise that muscle.
So much of being good at business and being good at business strategy is putting the reps in. If that’s something that you are looking to do right now in 2026 or whenever you happen to be reading this, sign up at EverydayEffectiveness.com/question. Just fill out a couple of questions right there, and you’ll be getting that the next Friday. We’ll see you next time.
Mentioned in This Episode
- Thinking in Bets
- Strategic Email Series – Sign up for Gwen’s weekly “one really good question” email
- Gwen Bortner on LinkedIn
About Your Hosts
Gwen Bortner has spent four decades advising executives and entrepreneurs in 45+ industries. She helps women succeed in business without sacrificing happiness by identifying their true desires and aligning their business functions. She spots overlooked bottlenecks and crafts efficient plans toward sustainable success that center your values and priorities. Known for her unique approach to problem-solving and accountability through the G.E.A.R.S. framework, Gwen empowers clients to achieve their definition of success without sacrificing what matters most.
Tonya Kubo is a marketing strategist and community builder who helps entrepreneurs build thriving online communities. As co-host of The Business You Really Want and Chief Marketing and Operations Officer (CMOO) at Everyday Effectiveness, she keeps conversations on track and ensures complex business concepts are accessible to everyone. A master facilitator with 18+ years of experience in online community building, Tonya takes a people-first approach to marketing and centers the human experience in all she does.
