Consistent revenue doesn’t have to mean constant stress. In this powerful conversation, Gwen Bortner and Tonya Kubo explore how to build a business that generates sustainable income without relying on hype, heroics, or high-stakes launches. They break down the systems and values behind a calm, drama-free revenue model and reveal why living “in the plains” may just be the path to long-term success. With insights on stabilizing cash flow, building a model that aligns with your personal life, and creating a business you actually like, this episode is a breath of fresh air for any entrepreneur tired of the rollercoaster.
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Creating Consistent Revenue Without The Drama
We know a truth that we hear a lot from business owners, which is that business feels a lot like a roller coaster. In this episode, Gwen and I are going to talk about what if that weren’t true. What if your business could live on the plains, avoiding the dramatic peaks and the opposite dramatic valleys that come with having big launches or constant pivots? Let’s be honest. Those adrenaline junkies among us, we enjoy that rush that comes from the feast and famine cycles, until we don’t.
Gwen is going to help us understand what it means to live in the plains, building a business that operates with steady, consistent growth rather than the dramatic highs and lows. If you’re new here, I am Tonya Kubo. I am always joined with Gwen. Tell us why the business world seems to be obsessed with dramatic growth, and how it, from your perspective, keeps us away from what is sustainable success.
The Allure Of Dramatic Business Growth
I don’t remember. You probably have a better sense of when the whole, “Let’s have a giant launch and talk about how many zeros our thing was.” It’s been forever ago. I can’t tell you when because I don’t pay that close attention. I know that in your world, you have paid closer attention.
I can’t give you a year. I don’t think Jeff Walker is patient zero for the whole thing, but when Jeff Walker came out with his Product Launch Formula, that is when I think it became the established standard of success.
I got the Product Launch Formula book early on as well. I looked at it and did all of those things. That was years ago.
Probably 2014, if I had to guess, but I could be wrong about it.
It was 10-ish-plus years from our recording date in 2025. I’ll call it bragging rights because that was also a time that social media was starting to take off as well. Not that it was starting, but that was a point that the bubble was starting to blow up at the same time. The two of those things together made the whole idea of being able to say, “I did a launch. It was a $10,000 launch, a $100,000 launch, or a $1 million launch. Look at me. That’s amazing.” It felt like it gave you credibility. You’re like, “I was able to sell this much of my idea, product, core service, or whatever it was that I was promoting.” I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with doing that, but the thing was that it has a whole lot of missing information in that one-liner of, “I had a $100,000 launch.”
I know you have enough background and behind-the-scenes experience to know there are people who had $100,000 or $300,000 launches that cost them $280,000 to do. That sounds impressive, but I’m sorry, $20,000 is not much money left over. You probably haven’t delivered the product yet. If there’s any service delivery time involved in that, that’s not nearly as outstanding as it sounds. We got addicted to that, “Look at this big number,” sort of thing.
You said it at the beginning. It’s true. Visionaries are also very much likely to be in some version of an adrenaline junkie of behavior. It’s part of the reason that visionaries are good visionaries. They are risk takers. They are willing to do some of these things. That does give all that adrenaline that goes along with it. The problem is the moment either that the $300,000 launch costs $280,000, that’s not good, or when the $300,000 launch costs $280,000, but it’s only a $250,000 launch. It has cost you $30,000.
I also believe that for most people, that big bulk of money is harder to manage over time to pay expenses. Even if your $200,000 launch netted you $150,000, even if it netted you that, how long does that money have to last? Are you parceling it out in a way that is useful so that you’ve got money for the entire time that you need money?
Most humans don’t do well with big chunks of money. They say, “I have a lot of money, so I can spend it.” All of a sudden, it’s like, “I don’t have enough money to finish paying payroll for the last two months.” Let’s say this is a six-month timeframe. It’s like, “We had a lot of money, and so we spent a lot of money.” All of those things are the challenge.
Our friend Nick Peterson, one of the things he says, which I love, is that on every side of a mountain is a valley. At the top of every mountain, you have to go down. That is the reality. That is life. That is nature. There is nothing that’s not true about that. That’s the same thing, even with the adrenaline. Even if you have the adrenaline rush at the top, at some point, there is an adrenaline crash with it. There are all sorts of things on the downside. The higher the mountain, the further the fall. If it’s an anthill, that’s not a very big fall. If it’s a foothill, eh. If it’s Everest, that’s a thing.
The higher the mountain, the further the fall. Share on XThere’s an amount of exhaustion that comes from a lot of high peaks and therefore low valleys in succession versus a high ascent to a very high plateau and then going down. There are a lot of ways that your business model can affect how fast you’re having to boomerang on all of it. I want to go back. First of all, I did fact-check us. Product Launch Formula came out in 2005. Why we’re thinking 2014 is because that’s when it reached the critical mass of all the gurus. It takes about ten years for any big idea to disperse among the masses.
Five to ten years would make perfect sense, so somewhere between 2010 and 2015.
By 2014, people were all teaching their own versions of it. I was thinking of Ryan Levesque. I don’t know if anybody reading knows of him. He was teaching how to make it happen with $0 out of pocket, which involved you were going to put everything on a credit card, and then you were going to make it up on the back end with your big launch. You were making money before that credit card payment was ever due. I know you would not call that $0 out of pocket, but that was the premise of it. That was roughly about 2015.
This goes all the way back to 2005, which is why for some of us, this is how life has always been. Many people in business were learning from somebody who learned from someone back then. It’s twenty years in the making. We all know being in business, if you work online for five years, it makes you feel like you’re a dinosaur.
You gave a great description of a present-level assessment. You were like, “This is where we’re at, and this is the issue with where we’re at.” We’ve talked a little bit about how we got here. I want to dig very briefly into the problem, but rather than agitate the problem, as we are taught to do in such things as PLF, we contrast it with what I discovered when I was brand-new in your business.
Finding Peace In A Steady Business Approach
I’m going to take our reader on a very brief history ride. I started working with Gwen in 2022. I came on the heels of other marketing professionals whom Gwen had hired. Not the first, and probably not the last, but I wouldn’t mind being the last. A lot of it was that we’ve tried everything with marketing, and it has all failed, but a lot of what had been tried before was built on the premise that those big launches were the ideal situation. It was a lot of marketing professionals who were trying to fit your business into that mold.
One of the things that struck me early on, and when I say early on, I’m talking about the first eight weeks that I was with you, was how peaceful it all was. I want to take it back. I know for a fact you didn’t know how much of a unicorn you were back then until I pointed it out. I don’t know how much you remember back then when I was like, “Let’s look at my capacity as your service provider. When are your launches? When is this? When is that?” You were like, “We have a quarterly planning event. There’s a lot that goes around that.”
The quarterly planning event doesn’t trigger a big sales period. It doesn’t trigger a retention period or a loss period. It’s pretty much the same day in, day out, and rinse and repeat as it always is. In fact, if there’s anything that spikes too high or spikes too low, I would want to dig deeper into that. I wouldn’t view that automatically as a good thing or as a bad thing. I went, “Huh,” as I do so eloquently when my brain is working.
I reserved judgment. I did some interviews with current clients. One of the things that all of them talked about was that they wanted the piece that they saw that you had, which is the fact that you were never panicking. I’m not saying that there are other coaches and consultants who panic with their clients, but there never seemed to be a panic about your pipeline. You had no stress like, “We have to make the most of this while we have it because next month, we may not have this same energy. Next month, we may not have this momentum.”
There were never any mid-cycle pivots and big, dramatic announcements. We didn’t have to pull some kind of cashflow saving measure out of our back pocket. It was consistent month after month, looking back year after year. The first thing that I want to make sure everybody reading knows is it’s not because you’re not ambitious, it’s not because you don’t have goals, and it’s not because your business isn’t growing. Your business has grown since we started working together.
Redefining Business Success: Sustained Growth Vs. Flat
The first year, it grew 50%. We had a flat year because we did a pretty major investment. This 2025, we’re on track to grow another 50% to 100%.
Note that she said, “One year was flat.” It’s not because revenue was flat, but because profit was flat.
Revenue was flat that year, too, but it was okay because we had other things that we were focusing on.
I want to point out that it’s not a lack of ambition. It’s also not that the business is stagnant. It’s because whether you meant to precisely or not, you have intentionally designed a business model that operates in a steady, sustainable, drama-free way.
You’re right. I did not intend to, but because that is my natural way of being, I did intend to. I wouldn’t have put those words around it.
Aligning Your Business With Personal Values
You didn’t take out your legal pad and say, “Ten steps to designing a steady, sustainable, drama-free business. Step one, I will never do traditional launches. Step two, I’m not going to put thousands of dollars of social media ads on my credit card. Step three, I will never do a webinar.” This goes back to something we’ve talked about throughout this show. If you want to talk about this, let’s do that because I do think it will help with the rest of the episode. You created a business, Imperfect Alignment, with who you are and what you value. Tell us what you value.
I value calm. My anchor is calm. That’s also what I provide my clients. Most of my clients are high visionaries. We’re talking about the adrenaline junkie personality, not necessarily base jumping off of buildings, but doing other things that are a little risky, a little fun, and shiny object syndrome kinds of things. That is not my personality. I am not a traditional visionary. By most people’s evaluation, they’d say, “Gwen is not a visionary.” I would also agree. That is not my primary attribute as an entrepreneur, a visionary. I am primarily an operator. I know that.
I’m an internet dinosaur. I was already on the internet before I read Jeff Walker’s book in 2005. I was selling things on the internet in 2000, and people were like, “What?” I’ve been doing this for a long time. It was because of that and because of my natural personality that I was much less likely to get caught in the shiny object syndrome, and also because I was older as I was doing this.
This wasn’t my first rodeo. I had already owned several businesses. I had worked in dozens of businesses. I had seen lots of things. I was able to say what works for me and make choices. Although I would still get caught in the, “Everyone says this is the way I should do it, so this is the way I should do it.” I would get caught on the other side of like, “I’m old. Maybe I’m out of touch, so I need to be doing what they say that I should be doing.”
The only times I would get out of alignment were when I would assume that my age was holding me back. I wasn’t doing what I should be doing because maybe I’m old, fuddy-duddy, and like, “Get off my lawn, you whipper snapper.” Generally, that wouldn’t work because it’s not my personality. Anyone who knows me will say my personality is calm. Few people see me lose my mind very often. Even my husband, who has lived with me for 27 years, will say, “When Gwen loses her mind, it is scary and it is ugly, but it doesn’t happen very often.”
That calm is the piece of it, and therefore aligned with that. Part of that is also the steady that is chugging along. I’ve made a number of choices that most business people weren’t making because I believe we’re going to chug along bit by bit. It doesn’t mean that we’re not climbing the hill. If you know anything about trains, trains can only take so much of an incline. There can be an incline. I don’t know what the degree is, but it’s a relatively small incline.
There’s a place here in Southern California called the Tehachapi, where the train has to go up over the hill, but it goes around this foothill, a smaller hill, 2 or 3 times. There’s an overlook to be able to watch these long, heavily laden trains that are going across and heading East. It goes around and around to be able to get high enough to be able to get over. It does not go up the hill. It is not doing that. That’s the way that my life functions. I’m usually climbing the hill, but I’m climbing it at a much slider angle. That means I can climb it forever because I’m never getting exhausted.
Responding To Critics: Confidence In Your Business
You have the stamina to continue. I was going to ask my next question, but what you said reminds me of back in those early days when we were working together. You were doing the classic, “Who is in any industry where I want to be, and what are they doing? Who is in a similar industry or doing a similar thing that is where I want to be? What are they doing?” You would bring up these various professionals, and I would say, “That’s the same dude bro formula delivered by somebody who’s wearing a skirt. When you look under the hood, it’s all the same.” You have said that you don’t want to do that.
I remember one time we were at your house. You looked at me and said, “What if they’re doing it because it works? What if that’s why they’re all doing it? What if they’re not all doing it because they’re all drinking the same Kool-Aid, but they’re doing it because it works, and that’s what we should be doing?” We sat with it for a while, and I did what I always do. I was like, “Let’s pretend that’s true. Let’s kick that can down the road and talk about what that all means.”
Where we landed was in a place that you positively knew you didn’t want to be. That’s how we said, “That’s not the path to go down. We’re going to keep doing what feels right, even if it takes us longer to get where we want to be.” In 2025, I still imagine that there are people whom you meet at networking events, especially people who don’t know you very well, who might suggest that the way that you do business isn’t that exciting, or might suggest that there’s a more fun way.
Almost all of them.
How do you respond to that? I bet there are people here reading who go to events and somebody says, “What you’re doing would never work,” or, “This is a better way,” and they don’t know how to respond. How do you respond, being that you’re confident that you’re doing the right thing in the right way, even if it flies in the face of what other people say you should do?
My response is pretty consistent. They almost always use the word big. It’s like, “What is the new big thing you’re doing?” Most of the time, my answer is, “It’s interesting because I don’t do new things or big things. I’m boring.” This is where I came up with the whole thing of people who do big things have these big mountains that they climb, but then they have to fall down the other side at some point.
I said, “I’m boring. I live on the plains. I’m gaining a little bit of altitude here and there over time, but if I lose a customer, it doesn’t make that big of a difference. If I get a new customer, it also doesn’t make that big of a difference.” I smile and say, “It’s boring, but it’s consistent and sustainable. I live on the plains.” People are like, “Oh.” There’s always this, “I never thought of that as a possibility,” face that comes with it. Usually, there are not a lot of questions because you can tell this is a completely new thought to them. Often, that creates for interesting conversation later. They’re like, “How do you do that?”
The stories you tell me are more when the conversations lead to people going, “How is it that you do that? How long did it take you to do that? Have you always done that?” It’s the curiosity. Have you ever felt like somebody blew you off and was like, “That would never work,” and then went away?
Yeah, but I also know not everybody is for me and my people. I’m completely okay with that. That is also the other piece of I don’t have to “be friends” with everybody I meet. I know what’s going on in their head is some version of, “That means you’re not an entrepreneur and you aren’t good at what you do.” They’re having some version of that conversation, or, “You must be playing small,” or any of the rest of it. That’s fine. They’re not my people. That’s okay.
The Power Of Recurring Revenue For Stability
I want to spend two minutes on this next question, because I have a lot more ground that I want to cover with you, which is the revenue stream. We know that what we’re sold on these big launch formulas is like, “$150,000 lands in your bank account right now. $200,000 lands in your bank account right now.”
I don’t want to get granular and talk about payment upfront versus payment plans or any of that stuff, but talk to me about the revenue side of things for you and the cadence of revenue. How is the recurring revenue working for you? You already said that it’s hard to manage big chunks of revenue at once, but from your own perspective, what are the pros and cons of the revenue model that you’ve chosen?
The biggest pro is that I can project my revenue pretty accurately for long periods of time. I know that for the most part, this is my monthly recurring revenue. I make adjustments if something goes up or something goes down, because both things happen. When they do, it’s not huge percentages. Usually, if something goes up or down, it’s a 10% adjustment for the month.
Next month, this other thing happened, so it’s back up. It’s only doing these tiny little adjustments. I don’t have to make giant changes and, all of a sudden, say, “Tonya and Sophia, you guys have to cut your hours by 75% because I’m not going to be able to pay you otherwise.” Maybe once or twice, but for the most part, I’ve never told you that you had to stop working because I wouldn’t be able to pay you.
You’ve never said that. You have said, “If something doesn’t change in the next 90 days, we may need to revisit your hours.” I feel like hardly anybody can see three months in the future like you can.
Due to the way the revenue is, it’s not hard for me to do it. I can look and say, “I can make those changes.” Changes don’t mean huge changes for me. A new customer doesn’t mean, “I’ve got all this money,” but at the same point, a lost customer isn’t like, “What am I going to cut?” Neither of those things happens. I’m able to look a long way out and be able to start making some predictions about what I can do, what I can’t do, and all of those things.
For me, it’s about the steadiness of the money. Therefore, I also don’t worry about the client renewing next month. I assume that they’re going to renew. I usually know about the time that they’re either going to start cutting back on their services or they’re going to not renew. Usually, when we have the conversation, it’s like, “I agree with you. It makes perfect sense. Go.” I don’t have to get panicky, but it also means that I’m not paying for a whole lot of service to offer a launch that I don’t know whether it will or won’t deliver.
As somebody who has done launch strategy and launch management fulfillment for the course or the coaching side of large launches, the biggest benefit I see with your model is instant feedback. We can never get too far off course without knowing hands down whether it’s working for clients or not, because every client is on a month-to-month retainer regardless of the level of service. It is month-to-month if you want out, no questions asked. If something wasn’t working, we would know within a month.
Part of how you’ve structured your offer is that in the worst-case scenario, we’d be up or down $3,000 in a month, unless something went horribly wrong like everybody canceled all at the same time, but the business is insulated against that. Whereas in these larger companies that I’ve worked for, let’s say it’s a six-month program.
You’re doing this big launch and bringing in $250,000 for the 6-month program, and then you go fully into fulfillment. You won’t know if everybody feels like they got value until the end of that fulfillment phase, during which time it may be too late to adjust for your next launch. You can think everything went swimmingly because we did $250,000 on our last launch. If there was something off in your delivery and you’ve got your entire cohort of people telling everybody it’s the worst thing ever, you could get very surprised by a failure in the next launch that you didn’t know was coming.
We get pretty much instant feedback. It works in both ways. Clients who aren’t a good fit also leave very quickly. Maybe somewhere they are out there talking badly about me, but I don’t think they are because there’s nothing to complain about. They didn’t pay for a 6-month program and only found 30 days of value in it. That’s the other thing. They aren’t paying for things that they aren’t getting.
Part of that is because I’m boring, the offer that you saw when you came in two and a half years ago is pretty much exactly what it is. We’ve made some minor tweaks, but I haven’t changed my offers at all. Every once in a while, I add something new or I may make a little adjustment, but my offers are consistent. I’m not always trying to do something new because I need to attract new people.
Beyond Business: Hobbies, Fulfillment, And Avoiding Burnout
Let’s talk about that. I’m going to bring something up that could be potentially a little bit ouchy for some readers. I want to give you that warning. I don’t even know how to ask the question, so I’m going to come out with it. My perspective is that you lead a full life, and because you lead a full life, there is no huge gap that you need your business to fill.
There’s no big emotional gap that your business needs to fill for you. There’s no big social gap that you need your business to fill for you. There’s no big validation gap that you need your business to fill for you. I think you know where I’m going with this. Talk to me about how fulfilling personal interests protect you from using business complexity as either entertainment or as personal fulfillment.
I can’t tell you the number of people that I know in a variety of scenarios who use the excuse that they need to work all the time as the reason they don’t have hobbies, and they aren’t doing all of these other things. Due to the work I do, I get to look very closely. I’m way under the hood, under the car, through the engine, and coming out through the air vents in people’s businesses. I am all in it. It is very obvious that they are using their business to fulfill every aspect of their life.
Although we want to enjoy our business, when we try to do that, that’s also a reason people are burning out. Their brain is always in business mode, even if they love what they do. I said a while back that people can burn out doing what they love in their business. People were like, “What do you mean?” You can because part of this is that your brain is only focused on one thing. I do lead a very full life. I have multiple hobbies that are actual hobbies. My definition of a hobby is something that costs money but doesn’t make money that you enjoy doing.
Work is not your hobby.
Work can’t be your hobby. Some will say, “Running’s my hobby, but it doesn’t cost money.” It’s like, “How much are those running shoes?” They’re like, “It does cost money.” Some things cost more money than others. I will admit that a lot of my friends I know through my work. That often happens to me. Also, I have a set of friends that I made through my knitting world way back that are still my friends. I still stay in contact with them. We still talk and do all of the things. I have friends who are not my clients.
I also feel like all of my clients are friends, but they are not my only dependency for friendship. I’ve got interests outside. I love spending time with my husband. I hate to say this, but I see many of the women who are way too buried deep in their business are avoiding their family situation, whether it be with a spouse, children, parents, brothers and sisters, in-laws, or whatever, because it’s a justifiable way to avoid the family. They’re like, “I’ve got to work on my business.”
All of those things are true. That also allows me to, for lack of a better term, compartmentalize my business. When I’m working on my business, you know I am all in on my business, and I’m very focused on it. I also do not work lots of hours beyond the hours that I’ve identified for my work. Some weeks are longer than others, but most weeks are pretty much what I expect them to be.
Some weeks are longer than others, but very few weeks are longer by surprise.
That part’s true. It’s only if something weird happens, which hardly ever happens. That goes back to I have a boring business. The boring business is a win.
I take note when you tell me that you’re overwhelmed. When Gwen says she’s overwhelmed, it sounds like, “I’m a little busier than I like to be right now,” feeling like there’s a little bit more to catch up on than usual. It’s not true pulling-out-your-hair overwhelmed. In the time that we’ve worked together, it has come up 3 times in about 2 and a half years, which is a pretty good average.
Aside from using business to escape your personal life, because that’s not a coaching issue but a therapy issue, give us a couple of tips you would give to the readers who say, “I do live way too much in the peaks and valleys. I don’t want that.” What would be the 1st step and then the 2nd step on how to live into more stability?
The first would be looking for what can create stable income as opposed to income highs and lows. I’m not saying there’s a best business model for that. There are 1,000 business models for that. It’s not necessarily recurring income, but there are things that you can do to stabilize the income. Once you stabilize the income, it doesn’t mean you can’t still have peaks and valleys, but all of a sudden, the stable income is higher. The peak doesn’t need to be as high, which means the other side of it, if it doesn’t go, isn’t as low either.
The first would be, what are the ways that you could potentially stabilize income and have less big flows and low flows? We’ve got a client. Her mantra for 2025 is no heroics. How do you create a business that doesn’t require heroics, where someone has to come in and save the day? I’ve used this a lot. It’s Dan Sullivan’s quote that entrepreneurs are good firefighters, which sometimes means they’re also good arsonists.
If you can get out of that heroic mode, that’s the other place where you start seeing the stabilization of everything else. It’s like, “I don’t want to ever have to work more than X hours in a week.” I’m designing everything to not require heroics, which does mean we have to plan further out. We have to delegate things more fully and take less responsibility. There’s a whole lot of stuff. It means we have to let go of the adrenaline rush of the heroics. That’s way harder than that sounds.
A Steady Business Serves Your Life And Goals
Step one is looking at what makes sense in terms of stabilizing revenue. The second is let’s make a commitment to no heroics, and then what has to be true in order for there not to be heroics. I’m not going to say that those are easy things to do.
Let's make a commitment to no heroics. Share on XThey’re simple. They’re not easy.
Those are two very concrete next steps that you can take if that is a goal of yours or if you like this idea of living in the plains. I want to bring us to a close. I want to say thank you because it’s not every day that we get to dig deep into somebody else’s business and have them be honest and forthright about what works and what doesn’t, even when it’s so different from what everybody else does.
Ultimately, what I hope anybody reading takes away is that living in the plains is about stability. It’s about avoiding burnout. It’s about preventing yourself from building a monster of a business that you have to keep feeding even when you’ve fallen out of love with it. This kind of steady strength does allow for compound growth over time. It does require a significant level of restraint because you have to stop chasing the dramatic highs if you want to avoid those devastating lows.
The result will be, if you follow along here, a business that serves your life, supports your goals, and grows consistently over time without requiring those heroics that Gwen talked about that sacrifice your peace of mind or your need for personal fulfillment. If you are sitting right there going, “I do not like that you guys are talking about me right now. This does not feel good,” and you’re feeling trapped in that rollercoaster cycle and you want to move toward the steady plains approach that we’ve been discussing, aside from what Gwen has suggested, maybe the next step is to figure out whether you are trapped in a burnout cycle.
If you think you might be, there’s an easy way to figure it out, which is to take our Breaking the Burnout Cycle assessment, which also includes an action guide to help you identify what’s keeping you stuck in that reactive mode and gives you some practical steps to reclaim time for what matters most. You can get that free at TheBusinessYouReallyWant.com/burnout. At the very least, it’s going to give you a good picture of what you should be doing to work on the right things so that you can build that steady, sustainable business that we’ve talked about. Gwen, thank you. We will see each other next time.
Mentioned in This Episode
- Breaking the Burnout Cycle Assessment
- Jeff Walker
- Product Launch Formula
- Launch: An Internet Millionaire’s Secret Formula To Sell Almost Anything Online, Build A Business You Love, And Live The Life Of Your Dreams
About Your Hosts
Gwen Bortner has spent four decades advising executives and entrepreneurs in 45+ industries. She helps women succeed in business without sacrificing happiness by identifying their true desires and aligning their business functions. She spots overlooked bottlenecks and crafts efficient plans toward sustainable success that center your values and priorities. Known for her unique approach to problem-solving and accountability through the G.E.A.R.S. framework, Gwen empowers clients to achieve their definition of success without sacrificing what matters most.
Tonya Kubo is a marketing strategist and community builder who helps entrepreneurs build thriving online communities. As co-host of The Business You Really Want and Chief Marketing and Operations Officer (CMOO) at Everyday Effectiveness, she keeps conversations on track and ensures complex business concepts are accessible to everyone. A master facilitator with 18+ years of experience in online community building, Tonya takes a people-first approach to marketing and centers the human experience in all she does.
